Chav World 4 U!

[Daz Madrigal]

sandywinder said:

oldpunkette said:

Sandy,

I don't think the idea of having some kind of open area for drug addicts sounds workable, and from your post it hasn't worked. (Apart from anything else, would you want to live near a park that had that in it, or walk your dog near it?)


I have long been of the opinion that heroin users should receive heroin through their GP/chemists in the way that they currently receive methadone (which is a waste of time imho). I'm not suggesting a free-for-all in a public park, but a medicalisation of the problem.

However, if what Picci is saying is true, that the majority of heroin users use ocassionally and recreationally . . . and I have no reason to doubt this, I just haven't ever come across it . . then that raises further questions.

I won't speak for Mr/Ms P but I don't think that heroin use is a serious problem for only a MINORITY. Cannabis yes but heroin no.

I have no problem with the medical profession treating any drug addict but the purpose of the treatment should be one of gradual withdrawal and cure rather than one of sustainment.

Its one of those endless, no solution topics as is crime. And of course both are interlinked.

I'm not convinced by Picciones middle class weekend user of heroin view. Maybe I'm wrong but I'd suggest they are the minority..what their middle class white collar Wives and Children think its perfect reality fodder subject matter for a documentary.

The fact that CH4 haven't got round to making one suggests its a rare occurrence.

Its too much of a circular argument re. crime. What came first the drugs or the criminal behaviour?

Specific assertions are a lot easier to solve. For example JSG suggests elsewhere that people in Prison for long sentences do not re-offend as much as for short sentences. But then forgets that short sentences are given for 'recurring crimes' anyway such as shoplifting for drug money and possession of drugs. Of course they are recidivists. If your in for a long stretch you may have murdered or severely injured someone so are unlikely to return to jail.

Drug criminals are revolving door criminals that just go endlessly around the system without the problem being solved sensibly.

[sandywinder]

oldpunkette said:

sandywinder said:

So what you are saying OP is that the police KNOW where all these cannabis growing places are and YET do absolutely NOTHING about them.

And then people have the nerve to say that fighting against the drug problem is not working.

If I stood in a boxing ring and didn't defend myself and stood there being hit, would I expect to win the fight? I don't think so.

It should be quite obvious to everybody that the authorities waved the white flag many years ago, when they could have nipped the problem in the bud. Now it is much harder but still not IMPOSSIBLE if they had the will to do it. But they do not.

They have also given up on illegal immigration as well.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. They bust the odd house (recently up here there have been Vietnamese gangs busted who were growing cannabis on an industrial level), but the ordinary joe soap with a few plants in his attic - the police are not interested.

You say that it could be possible, if difficult, to now start policing cannabis production and use. I honestly can't see how within existing police resources.

There's the crux of the problem, OP. The lack of resources to fight crime. We have many policemen but they spend most of the time filling in forms or skulking in police stations. But then the prisons are full and the law courts are hard pressed. This is the result of failure by both Labour and Tory governments to get to grips with crime.

I have said it before and I am going to say it again.

If you are teaching a class of schoolkids and you allow them to behave as they like they will become unruly, through lack of discipline, and the problems you have with them will escalate.

But if you have strict teaching environment, which will not put up with any nonsense, the kids will be well-behaved.

I think we all know that.

And the same is the case with teenagers and criminals of all ages where drugs and crime are concerned.

Society is now reaping what useless past politicians and excusists for bad behaviour have created.

[sandywinder]

motorist said:

sandywinder said:

Now if you put all of these in prison for 40 years is ANYBODY really saying that it would not vastly reduce the drug problem?

It would reduce it, but who would say it would do so vastly?

Firstly, a number of those arrested would get off because of lack of evidence or somesuch. Knowing who's doing it is not the same as having enough evidence to convict them

Secondly, even these people would likely just be cogs. They would be replaced with drug peddlers not formerly known of and the police would be back to not knowing who any of them are

I think an attic full of cannabis plants would be pretty damning evidence, moto.

It would reduce the problem for the following reasons.

1. The ones caught would not be making or selling drugs.

2. It would send a signal to anybody thinking about doing it that it would not be worth the risk of getting caught and being banged up.

3. The big bosses would see their profits shrinking and would go elsewhere to other countries, which had also given up on the problem.

[sandywinder]

oldpunkette said:

sandywinder said:

But that is because our authorities have given up in trying to stop the problem . The police KNOW who these drug producers and sellers are but allow them to go about freely.

Now if you put all of these in prison for 40 years is ANYBODY really saying that it would not vastly reduce the drug problem?

Are they? Because if they are they are as mentality stable as many drug users are.

I would appreciate an answer to this question rather than some more irrelevant twaddle.

Sandy, in the USA over recent years there has been a policy of using prison more and more for longer sentences (e.g 3 strikes and you're out policies, etc.).

So drug dealers there are getting locked up for long periods of time.

But they are replaced by others as fast as they are locked up.

Locking up the gangsters and dealers doesn't seem to have much effect on the overall trade.

Maybe ONE Strike and you are out would be far more of a deterrent than excusing the first two. A drug baron (if that is the correct term) could easily get some other sucker to sell his stuff after the second strike.

And Britain's appeasement policy regarding drugs has also led directly to our prisons overflowing.

See the classroom analogy previously.

[sandywinder]

oldpunkette said:

There are no positive facts about child drug abuse, whether it's cannabis, smack or alcohol.

Kids should not be doing any of it. But they do.

So I say give them proper information, including information about harm reduction, and stop kidding ourselves that we can make it go away for them.

But I say we could make it go away for most of them if we tried to deal with the problem for once rather than ignoring it and hoping it will go away.

Defeatism never achieves anything.

You might as well say we can't stop rapists and murderers so let's just try to educate people about the dangers instead.

[oldpunkette]

sandywinder said:

oldpunkette said:

There are no positive facts about child drug abuse, whether it's cannabis, smack or alcohol.

Kids should not be doing any of it. But they do.

So I say give them proper information, including information about harm reduction, and stop kidding ourselves that we can make it go away for them.

But I say we could make it go away for most of them if we tried to deal with the problem for once rather than ignoring it and hoping it will go away.

Defeatism never achieves anything.

You might as well say we can't stop rapists and murderers so let's just try to educate people about the dangers instead.

I just did a big long ranty reply to this, went to POST and it took me to a 'page cannot be displayed' message. I have now lost the will to live. Sorry.

But basically it was all about how we can't prevent murder and rape, and how we have to live with acceptance and avoidance. You could probably guess it.

[Nathan deGargoyle]

Long ranty replies are best done in a text editor, then cut and pasted in to the reply box. I think it's got a time-out setting so if you take too long to reply it buggers your message (to use a technical term).

[sandywinder]

oldpunkette said:

sandywinder said:

But I say we could make it go away for most of them if we tried to deal with the problem for once rather than ignoring it and hoping it will go away.

Defeatism never achieves anything.

You might as well say we can't stop rapists and murderers so let's just try to educate people about the dangers instead.

I just did a big long ranty reply to this, went to POST and it took me to a 'page cannot be displayed' message. I have now lost the will to live. Sorry.

But basically it was all about how we can't prevent murder and rape, and how we have to live with acceptance and avoidance. You could probably guess it.

What a shame, OP. These bloody computers eh?

[Daz Madrigal]

Well theres always the simple way..

..just throw everyone in prison and cut the crime rate immediately.

[oldpunkette]

madrigalman said:

Well theres always the simple way..

..just throw everyone in prison and cut the crime rate immediately.

No need to throw everyone in gaol. Just young men from certain post codes aged between about 15 and 25. Result - virtually crime-free.

[Daz Madrigal]

Whats wrong with Picciones Swiss Model, and where can I get one?

..give them nice clean heroin and nice clean needles and then let them wander around a park completely out to lunch.

[sandywinder]

madrigalman said:

Well theres always the simple way..

..just throw everyone in prison and cut the crime rate immediately.

Now there's an idea. ;D

[sandywinder]

madrigalman said:

Whats wrong with Picciones Swiss Model, and where can I get one?

..give them nice clean heroin and nice clean needles and then let them wander around a park completely out to lunch.

Nah Swedish models are best.



I wonder if he's a tiger in bed.

[oldpunkette]

madrigalman said:

Whats wrong with Picciones Swiss Model, and where can I get one?

..give them nice clean heroin and nice clean needles and then let them wander around a park completely out to lunch.

Not the park, no. That's the bit that's not good.

Let them go back to their homes/hostels and do their injecting. Smackheads off the streets!

Every day on my way to work I walk by one of the smack-dealer's routine morning selling points, and I have to pick my way through the zombies, me trying to looking tough and not-the-kind-of-person-to-rob. It's exhausting.

They have had their souls taken from them. They should go home with their crime-free impurity-free smack and do it to themselves there.

[sandywinder]

oldpunkette said:

madrigalman said:

Whats wrong with Picciones Swiss Model, and where can I get one?

..give them nice clean heroin and nice clean needles and then let them wander around a park completely out to lunch.

Not the park, no. That's the bit that's not good.

Let them go back to their homes/hostels and do their injecting. Smackheads off the streets!

Every day on my way to work I walk by one of the smack-dealer's routine morning selling points, and I have to pick my way through the zombies, me trying to looking tough and not-the-kind-of-person-to-rob. It's exhausting.

They have had their souls taken from them. They should go home with their crime-free impurity-free smack and do it to themselves there.

Isn't this just hiding/ignoring the problem?