jean
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Post by jean on Jun 13, 2011 12:21:34 GMT
(Not me. It's definitely this thread.)
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Post by Pink Betty on Jun 13, 2011 20:37:52 GMT
Y My point is/was that this 'movement' is misplaced as are so many. I believe this to be a movement of exhibitionist women taking over a word, just like the queer word and the n1gger word. It is a case of 'owning' a word that only they can use and woe betide anyone else who does. sensible loop
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loop
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bozo hypocritical prat
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Post by loop on Jun 14, 2011 7:20:27 GMT
Y My point is/was that this 'movement' is misplaced as are so many. I believe this to be a movement of exhibitionist women taking over a word, just like the queer word and the n1gger word. It is a case of 'owning' a word that only they can use and woe betide anyone else who does. sensible loop My Lady
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jean
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Post by jean on Jun 14, 2011 9:01:15 GMT
It is a case of 'owning' a word that only they can use and woe betide anyone else who does. Not that at all. It is a case of taking a word that has a wholly negative meaning and is used to insult you, and saying I am investing this word with a positive meaning - use it if you like, but don't think you can use it to insult me with.You're surely not regretting that (some) black people's attempt to 'reclaim' the N word and defuse its hostile meaning has prevented those who wanted to use it as an insult from doing so? Are you?
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loop
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Post by loop on Jun 14, 2011 11:47:54 GMT
The n1gger word is simply a german word for black.
Black white yellow brown are just words, as are queer and slut, maybe one day apple, orange, cabbage or homeowner will become words which only those that have those physical attributes may use. If we are not careful half the language will be off limits.
Imagine if left and right were marginalised by sandy and exco our sat navs would be in contempt without even knowing it
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jean
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Post by jean on Jun 14, 2011 14:09:50 GMT
The n1gger word is simply a german word for black. Not really: it comes ultimately from Latin niger and exists in some form in all Romance languages - eg Italian nero, French noir. The German for black OTOH is schwartz.But a word acquires connotations from the way it's used. It is naive and simplistic in the extreme to try to pretend that a whole history of usage has not happened. Odd you should mention that - it's already quite difficult to use the Latin word for 'left' - sinister - without being assumed to intend a pejorative meaning.
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Xanthippe
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Post by Xanthippe on Jun 14, 2011 14:18:50 GMT
I was always amused when looking at SCHWARTZKOPF haircare products
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jean
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Post by jean on Jun 14, 2011 14:27:23 GMT
Luther's friend Schwartzerdt wasn't very keen on his German name, so he Graecised it to Melancthon.
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loop
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Post by loop on Jun 15, 2011 7:34:47 GMT
SPS, you are correct it is of French/Spanish origin distorted by old Scots and old English and not German.
And of, course it is a modern day derogatory term, as is sluts. My point is that our language is not a case of they can use this word, whilst those people cannot. If a word is in use then it is available to everyone. So if some people use n1gger, then everyone can, the same with slut, queer and whitey.
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sandywinder
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Post by sandywinder on Jun 15, 2011 7:51:22 GMT
I wonder if JKR was affected by all this nonsense with 'He who must not be named'.
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jean
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Post by jean on Jun 15, 2011 9:13:08 GMT
I usually am. Well, let's stick to sluts then, to which 'nigger' isn't an exact analogy. What exactly is it about 'slut' that is derogatory? Originally it meant a careless, untidy, lazy, slatternly woman. More recently the meaning has been extended to include sexual promiscuity. When the Canadian police officer used it, he implied that dressing in a particular way not only indicated sexual promiscuity, but an indiscriminate desire to have sex with anyone at all. That is a meaning no woman, however promiscuous she may choose to be, would want to be current. It is always the woman's choice who to have sex with. That's the point the women reclaiming the word wanted to make. (Why isn't there a derogatory word for a sexually promiscuous man? It's a question that has often been asked.)
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sandywinder
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Post by sandywinder on Jun 15, 2011 9:22:22 GMT
I think a better question would be why do so many women put up with sexually promiscuous men. How often do we hear of male politicians being supported by their wives when they have been caught out in the act?
That is not the fault of men. That is the fault of women. If women routinely rejected cheating husbands as most men would do with their wives, then there probably would exist a word for sexually promiscuous men.
When the Canadian police officer used it, he implied that dressing in a particular way not only indicated sexual promiscuity, but an indiscriminate desire to have sex with anyone at all.
Did he imply all that? How do you know what he implied and what was in his mind at the time? Who are you to judge? You don't know what his actual words were or the tone of those words, let alone what he was thinking. He may indeed have meant what you said but equally he may have been thinking only of the future safety of this woman and wanted to stop her being hurt again. Men are not all the type you may think they are.
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jean
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Post by jean on Jun 15, 2011 9:35:35 GMT
I think a better question would be why do so many women put up with sexually promiscuous men. How often do we hear of male politicians being supported by their wives when they have been caught out in the act? It's a good question; but whatever the wives think about it, there's something in the culture that permits such behaviour in the first place. And it's not women's fault if that's the case. He was endorsing the view that a woman is more likely to be sexually attacked of she looks like a slut. He was therefore endorsing the view that there is a category of woman properly labelled slut who men regard as up for it sexually with anyone. If what he said didn't properly reflect what he was thinking, that's his responsibility I think.
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sandywinder
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Post by sandywinder on Jun 15, 2011 9:53:48 GMT
It's a good question; but whatever the wives think about it, there's something in the culture that permits such behaviour in the first place. And it's not women's fault if that's the case.
And culture is the product of men and women in almost equal measures. Therefore even this is as much the fault of women as men that society has this culture.
He was endorsing the view that a woman is more likely to be sexually attacked of she looks like a slut. He was therefore endorsing the view that there is a category of woman properly labelled slut who men regard as up for it sexually with anyone.
I also endorse the view that a woman is more likely to be attacked if she looks like a slut. Many men will see women dressing like that as fair game
as YOU yourself implied of the police officer when you said:-
but an indiscriminate desire to have sex with anyone at all.
If you think an ordinary policeman thinks like that why wouldn't a sex-obsessed would-be rapist? *
So that's why I endorse that view just as I endorse the view that people who do not wear helmets when riding a bike are more likely to be injured than those who do not. That doesn't mean that they deserve to be knocked down by a car if they don't wear a helmet nor does it mean that if you wear helmet you are not going to get knocked down.
* another good question?
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jean
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Post by jean on Jun 15, 2011 10:19:39 GMT
And culture is the product of men and women in almost equal measures. Therefore even this is as much the fault of women as men that society has this culture. A comfortable view, but not one that's borne out by what we can observe about the relative power of women within society throughout the last few hundered years. (The history of women's struggle to have control over their own property is an instructive example.) It's a bit different now, which is why we have the protests we're seeing against accepted norms. Maybe the politicians' wives aren't quite so evolved as the rest of us. Precisely - but you're just accepting the common definition of 'slut', which is exactly what these women want you to question. You're not listening. That particular analogy assumes that men in general, and policemen and rapists in particular, are as incapable of modifying their thinking and consequent behaviour as the rogue car or the piece of ground that the cyclist's head makes contact with. I hope you're not suggesting that.
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