Xanthippe
Madrigal Member
They Call Me Dragon.
Posts: 733
|
Post by Xanthippe on Jun 16, 2011 8:51:22 GMT
So that's why I endorse that view just as I endorse the view that people who do not wear helmets when riding a bike are more likely to be injured than those who do not. That doesn't mean that they deserve to be knocked down by a car if they don't wear a helmet nor does it mean that if you wear helmet you are not going to get knocked down. only if you believe that drivers are likely always to want to drive at and injure cyclists
|
|
jean
Madrigal Member
Posts: 8,546
|
Post by jean on Jun 16, 2011 12:49:05 GMT
And (additionally) if you believe they see a cyclist without a helmet and think 'Great, I'll go for that one - he'll be that much easier to kill'.
|
|
sandywinder
Madrigal Member
Holistic Philosopher
The private sector makes boxes, the public sector ticks them
Posts: 16,929
|
Post by sandywinder on Jun 18, 2011 7:11:27 GMT
He was endorsing the view that a woman is more likely to be sexually attacked of she looks like a slut. He was therefore endorsing the view that there is a category of woman properly labelled slut who men regard as up for it sexually with anyone.
<<< I also endorse the view that a woman is more likely to be attacked if she looks like a slut. Many men will see women dressing like that as fair game >>>
Precisely - but you're just accepting the common definition of 'slut', which is exactly what these women want you to question. You're not listening.
Hang on, you used the expression 'looked like a slut' first. Why do you assume you can use that phrase but not me?
Do you own it?
Maybe instead of me not listening, you should start listening to yourself.
And the whole point about cyclists not wearing helmets is that it is more dangerous to their health, unless you are saying that it makes no difference.
As policemen (and most men) think that women are more at risk by wearing scanty clothing then why would rapists not be more likely to attack them? You ducked that one.
Who is best to judge the desires of a rapist? Men or feminists?
Would you also be in denial about the risk of not locking your door and instead rail against any policeman who advised you to do so?
|
|
|
Post by aubrey on Jun 18, 2011 16:06:03 GMT
Are you more likely to rape a woman because she's dressed in a certain way? Because I'm bloody not. (This is a man's view.)
Aren't men who think that women who dress "Provocatively" (whatever that means) are more likely to be the victim of sexual assault only shifting their own desires onto some mythical creature? And then they can say, Oh it's not me, it's someone else: and anyway - look at how she's dressed. Asking for it.
|
|
jean
Madrigal Member
Posts: 8,546
|
Post by jean on Jun 19, 2011 9:09:03 GMT
Hang on, you used the expression 'looked like a slut' first. I should have put inverted commas round it, as I was representing what others who use it take it to mean, not what I would mean by it myself . I don't think I've ever said that you or anyone else can't use the phrase. But I do believe that if we're going to use language successfully to communicate, we need to be sure we each understand what the other means. So let's start with the word slut.What is your definition of it?
|
|
jean
Madrigal Member
Posts: 8,546
|
Post by jean on Jun 19, 2011 9:12:26 GMT
Who is best to judge the desires of a rapist? Men or feminists? If sandy is really claiming that just being a man gives him a special insight into the desires of a rapist... But surely he can't be saying that!
|
|
sandywinder
Madrigal Member
Holistic Philosopher
The private sector makes boxes, the public sector ticks them
Posts: 16,929
|
Post by sandywinder on Jun 19, 2011 9:39:32 GMT
Hang on, you used the expression 'looked like a slut' first. I should have put inverted commas round it, as I was representing what others who use it take it to mean, not what I would mean by it myself . I don't think I've ever said that you or anyone else can't use the phrase. But I do believe that if we're going to use language successfully to communicate, we need to be sure we each understand what the other means. So let's start with the word slut.What is your definition of it? I am quite happy with the dictionary definition of the word. "1. a dirty, slovenly woman. 2. an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute."
|
|
sandywinder
Madrigal Member
Holistic Philosopher
The private sector makes boxes, the public sector ticks them
Posts: 16,929
|
Post by sandywinder on Jun 19, 2011 9:45:24 GMT
Who is best to judge the desires of a rapist? Men or feminists? If sandy is really claiming that just being a man gives him a special insight into the desires of a rapist... But surely he can't be saying that! What I am saying is that most rapists are men and men are generally better judges of a man's desires than women are. I do not claim to know a woman's desires better than a woman. Yet some women do claim to know what is in the heads of men better than men themselves, which I find extremely arrogant and ridiculous. Sorry if you can't understand that but it makes perfect sense to me..
|
|
jean
Madrigal Member
Posts: 8,546
|
Post by jean on Jun 19, 2011 9:58:21 GMT
Sandy, I wish you would learn to use the quote function on this board properly. You supposedly quoted me: He was endorsing the view that a woman is more likely to be sexually attacked of she looks like a slut. He was therefore endorsing the view that there is a category of woman properly labelled slut who men regard as up for it sexually with anyone. But what I actually wrote was: He was endorsing the view that a woman is more likely to be sexually attacked of she looks like a slut. He was therefore endorsing the view that there is a category of woman properly labelled slut who men regard as up for it sexually with anyone. When you italicised the whole of what I said, you obliterated my italicising of slut - which shows I'm not using it as I'd use it myself. I did wonder how I could have been so careless, and it turns out I wasn't. Well, I'm not. I've already pointed out that it's part of the meaning of prostitute that even she doesn't have to have sex with you if she doesn't choose to. But it's the rest of it that needs further clarification, and it's precisely that that the Slut Walks women want you to consider. What do you understand by dissolute? What do you understand by immoral?Because unless we get that part of the definition clear, we'll still be suffering from mutual misunderstanding.
|
|
jean
Madrigal Member
Posts: 8,546
|
Post by jean on Jun 19, 2011 9:59:58 GMT
What I am saying is that most rapists are men and men are generally better judges of a man's desires than women are... So all men are potential rapists, as some feminists have claimed? I really was hoping that wasn't so.
|
|
|
Post by aubrey on Jun 19, 2011 11:34:32 GMT
I would have thought that men, at best, are better judges of some men's desires: but that most men are not good judges of a rapist's "desires."
There are a lot of men's desires that I do not understand at all; but I don't think that rape usually has much to do with desire: at least not desire as most of us understand it.
|
|
jean
Madrigal Member
Posts: 8,546
|
Post by jean on Jun 19, 2011 11:52:50 GMT
I think sandy has just perpetrated a logical fallacy. Something like:
Rapists are men.
Men understand of the desires of men.
Therefore men understand the desires of rapists.
|
|
sandywinder
Madrigal Member
Holistic Philosopher
The private sector makes boxes, the public sector ticks them
Posts: 16,929
|
Post by sandywinder on Jun 20, 2011 13:26:29 GMT
What I am saying is that most rapists are men and men are generally better judges of a man's desires than women are... So all men are potential rapists, as some feminists have claimed? I really was hoping that wasn't so. All men are potential rapists in the same way that all people are potential murderers. I would like that not to be so as well but sadly reality is reality. That doesn't mean everybody is going to commit murder or even thinking of doing so. There's another unanswerable question here. Why do prostitutes dress like some young women going out on the piss? If, as these daft slutwalkers claim, dressing like a slut does not make men more likely to want to have sex with them why do prostitutes dress the way they do? I can't somehow see the logic in prostitutes dressing the way they do to put off men, can you?
|
|
sandywinder
Madrigal Member
Holistic Philosopher
The private sector makes boxes, the public sector ticks them
Posts: 16,929
|
Post by sandywinder on Jun 20, 2011 13:29:36 GMT
I think sandy has just perpetrated a logical fallacy. Something like: Rapists are men.
Men understand of the desires of men.
Therefore men understand the desires of rapists.You can play all these pathetic word games to try to divert the topic away from the weakness of your argument if you like, but I hope you realise it is a sign that you are losing the argument. What do you understand by dissolute? What do you understand by immoral? Why don't you just look up the words in a dictionary if you don't understand them? And bugger me if I haven't lost you precious italics again.
|
|
jean
Madrigal Member
Posts: 8,546
|
Post by jean on Jun 20, 2011 13:50:17 GMT
Why don't you just look up the words in a dictionary if you don't understand them? But sandy, it's you who have a problem with understanding, not me. The dictionary really does not tell you all you need to know about a word like immoral. All it can do is note as many different shades of meaning of the word as it can. It has to cover every sense of immoral from that of fundamentalist Christians, who think every physical expression of sex outside of marriage is deeply wrong, to - well, to people like you. And of course people like me. We will not all be using the word in the same way. I want to know what you really understand by immoral woman when (like the Canadian policeman) you are judging a woman by what she is wearing.
|
|