i wonder if it's really Ella's birthday....

[sandywinder]

madrigalman said:

sandywinder said:

I'd call it extremely logical to be selfish. Without selfishness man would have been extinct long ago. Survival of the fittest and also of the most selfish. Left wingers don't like this idea one bit but without it where would we all be now.

If your ancestors had said 'No after you' whenever there was a kill they would have starved to death.

There is logic in many more areas than you or I could imagine.

Even the herd mentality is based on logic. Gathering together for mutual protection rather than being isolated and risk being picked off by predators one by one.

So in that case, by following your flawed 'logic' of selfishness, the Germans who carried Adolf Hitler to power were merely following logic.

And what of the ones who disgreed were they purely over emotional hand wringers who can be dismissed as illiogical do-gooders, Sandy?

Its interesting that the major force behind Hitlers ideas was the 'pure logic' expounded by scientists. Eugenics makes perfect sense using your lodestone of 'logic'. However pure reason and logic when put into practice are extremely dangerous bedfellows.

Its also worth remebering that an unhindered devotion to pure logic can lead us up some terrible blind alleys - the invention of the Atom Bomb, Sandy? - but you seem perfectly happy to continue following these pied pipers blithely.

Are you not concerned by the Nuclear weapons possessed by Iran, N.Korea, Pakistan or even the USA?

To confuse pure greed and selfishness with logic and reason seems is extremely dubious and would be thrown out of any philosophy class in the country. Logic is by definition supposed to rely on being totally dispassionate.

..there is nothing dispassionate about a mad Gold Rush with every man for himself and a pushing aside of anyone who happens to get in your way.

You don't understand the point Daz.

I am not confusing greed and selfishness with logic. That is where you are going wrong. Greed is an example of logic. Greed/self explains WHY people behave in a certain manner.

Pyschiatrists/doctors use logic to try and sort out their patients but it doesn't mean they are mad/sick themselves.

If I was undergoing an operation would you prefer a surgeon who used logical procedures to carry out that operation or some witch doctor who thought that mumbo jumbo would cure the patient?

As for how German civilians behaved in WW2 it is completely logical that they would follow Hitler rather be put in concentration camps or shot themselves. That is the logic of FEAR.

But don't start confusing logic with fear now.

And Hitler's eugenics program was not created out of logic but irrational HATRED. That is not logic and I doubt you would say that it is logical to say that one race of people are more superior to any other.

The only logic employed was the method to dispose of people they hated.

[sandywinder]

madrigalman said:

sandywinder said:

Sorry Daz I don't know wtf you are talking about.

I'm suggesting that its not possible to change anyones mind. Occasionally if you wait long enough there may be a slight slipping of the mask. Thats where Dirk/Scorp made his mistake. He was forced to go to Sunday School; he was conned by the charisma of Billy Graham etc etc. In other words behind everyones belief there is a hidden counterpoint/agenda.

What you see is never the real truth. Thats the only interesting proposition behind putting several 'celebs' behind bars for weeks. Within days the cracks begin to show.

Galloway far from being a serious politician is in reality a frustrated showman who will do anything to seek th limelight.

Little Leo Sayer isn't the cheekie chappie beloved by Grandmothers who always has a smile on his face and a kind word for everyone. In fact he's an egotistical spoilt child who when thwarted reacts with more swear words than the whole of the Sex Pistols put together.

In fact, they are the exact opposite to the persona they hide behind and astrology is a very good tool for revealing the true person.

Its only minus is..whats the point? Despite it having little practical use besides idle curiousity whenever I've had to use it - it works. Thats all I know and all I can say.

I could of course try to come up with some test to prove that it works but when people have set their mind against anything even that is unlikely to change it.

Sorry but I disagree. If you can't change anyone's mind then the same political party would stay in power for ever. What you really mean is that SOME people don't change their minds very easily.

On the other hand others are more prone to do that and prevaricate and can't make decision. The majority of us are somewhere in between.

How many people change their minds about their religion and convert from religion to another?

Yet there is nothing more ingrained into a person's pysche than religion.

As for personality that too can change. Indeed it does change. Most people shake off their childish ways and mature. Kids who are yobs in their youth can become model citizens in their adulthood when they have matured.

And this does not depend on what day and time they were born but what happened to allow them to escape their idiotic behavior.

In some case they would take drugs or resort to crime or both and their future rested on what happened to them as a result. If they had no help or encouragement probably not much but with help and fair but firm discipline a good percentage (but not all) would turn into decent human beings.

[sandywinder]

What you seem to be implying (and this is very dangerous) is that people can not help behaving in a certain way because they are 'born that way'

And to me that is illogical and nonsense.

[Daz Madrigal]

<< What you really mean is that SOME people don't change their minds very easily. >>

No I' saying MOST people don't change their minds very easily. Its a rarity. Someone who is an Atheist one day is unlikely to become a born-again Christian the next. I would have thought that was blatantly obvious even to you Sandy.

In fact, Sandy you are a textbook case. Against all logic you keep parroting on about UKIP as if its the Saviour of the Nation when in political terms its a mere joke and is such an irrelevance that by comparison the BNP is far more likely to get more votes. Thats true isn't it, Sandy?

You know its true because the elections will prove it.

As for these people who keep changing their minds..theyre known as 'floating voters'..I'm sure you've heard of them!

[Daz Madrigal]

sandywinder said:

madrigalman said:

I'm suggesting that its not possible to change anyones mind. Occasionally if you wait long enough there may be a slight slipping of the mask. Thats where Dirk/Scorp made his mistake. He was forced to go to Sunday School; he was conned by the charisma of Billy Graham etc etc. In other words behind everyones belief there is a hidden counterpoint/agenda.

What you see is never the real truth. Thats the only interesting proposition behind putting several 'celebs' behind bars for weeks. Within days the cracks begin to show.

Galloway far from being a serious politician is in reality a frustrated showman who will do anything to seek th limelight.

Little Leo Sayer isn't the cheekie chappie beloved by Grandmothers who always has a smile on his face and a kind word for everyone. In fact he's an egotistical spoilt child who when thwarted reacts with more swear words than the whole of the Sex Pistols put together.

In fact, they are the exact opposite to the persona they hide behind and astrology is a very good tool for revealing the true person.

Its only minus is..whats the point? Despite it having little practical use besides idle curiousity whenever I've had to use it - it works. Thats all I know and all I can say.

I could of course try to come up with some test to prove that it works but when people have set their mind against anything even that is unlikely to change it.

Sorry but I disagree. If you can't change anyone's mind then the same political party would stay in power for ever. What you really mean is that SOME people don't change their minds very easily.

On the other hand others are more prone to do that and prevaricate and can't make decision. The majority of us are somewhere in between.

How many people change their minds about their religion and convert from religion to another?

Yet there is nothing more ingrained into a person's pysche than religion.

As for personality that too can change. Indeed it does change. Most people shake off their childish ways and mature. Kids who are yobs in their youth can become model citizens in their adulthood when they have matured.

And this does not depend on what day and time they were born but what happened to allow them to escape their idiotic behavior.

In some case they would take drugs or resort to crime or both and their future rested on what happened to them as a result. If they had no help or encouragement probably not much but with help and fair but firm discipline a good percentage (but not all) would turn into decent human beings.

I'm not sure what your on about, Sandy.

I'm not suggesting people don't grow up. Quite the opposite in fact. I'm saying that people reach a cut off point of maturity in which their views are fairly entrenched. Astrologically its known as the Saturn return but can be marked down as somewhere between 26-28 yrs old.

After that its very rare for people to radically alter entrenched opinions. The point about changing religions doesnt make much sense because usually its for entirely spurious but very practical reasons to do with Marriege, schooling and so on.

[sandywinder]

madrigalman said:

<< What you really mean is that SOME people don't change their minds very easily. >>

No I' saying MOST people don't change their minds very easily. Its a rarity. Someone who is an Atheist one day is unlikely to become a born-again Christian the next. I would have thought that was blatantly obvious even to you Sandy.

In fact, Sandy you are a textbook case. Against all logic you keep parroting on about UKIP as if its the Saviour of the Nation when in political terms its a mere joke and is such an irrelevance that by comparison the BNP is far more likely to get more votes. Thats true isn't it, Sandy?

You know its true because the elections will prove it.

As for these people who keep changing their minds..theyre known as 'floating voters'..I'm sure you've heard of them!

Since when has it been illogical to fight for a cause Daz? The illogicality is in supporting a party that does not represent your wishes just so another one can't get into power.

I think the Tories are running sh*t scared of UKIP now.

A few of them are finally realising that nice but Dave is not going to stop his treachery by his betrayal of Britain to Europe with regard to sovereignty let alone the cost of EU corruption.

Last week we had two peers leaving the Tories for UKIP,

Today (yes TODAY) Stuart Wheeler and the Tory party's once biggest donor is now pledging his support to UKIP.

The UKIP Express is leaving the station and gaining speed.

Its time to jump aboard.

UKIP have said they will not contest any seat in which a Tory Euro- sceptic is standing in.

It is time for loyal Tory cowards to come out of the closet.

[sandywinder]

madrigalman said:

<< What you really mean is that SOME people don't change their minds very easily. >>

No I' saying MOST people don't change their minds very easily. Its a rarity. Someone who is an Atheist one day is unlikely to become a born-again Christian the next. I would have thought that was blatantly obvious even to you Sandy.

On the other hand what is also blatantly obvious is that EVERY day some people who are Christian one day become Atheists the next (actually it happens over a period but you know what I mean).

There must be millions of people brought up as Christians in Britain alone who have become Atheists.

And even people when they get older change their minds. Look how many people who were Communists when they were younger change to being Tories (especially when they get a bit of money behind them) and vice versa.

Tony Benn was a Tory who turned to socialism.

And on JSG Lord Lucan was a socialist who has turned to the BNP of all parties.

Many people who thought it was right to fight in Iraq initially have now changed their minds (me included).

I have also changed my mind several times in the past over which party I would vote for.

Yet you say I am a prime example of some old git who never changes his spots.

You make a big mistake Daz in thinking people don't change. The reality is that people DO change but not necessarily overnight.

Damascene conversions rarely happen but over time it does happen.

It's like saying the earth's land mass shapes never change because you can't see it happening. But they do change over the millenia.

[Daz Madrigal]

sandywinder said:

madrigalman said:

<< What you really mean is that SOME people don't change their minds very easily. >>

No I' saying MOST people don't change their minds very easily. Its a rarity. Someone who is an Atheist one day is unlikely to become a born-again Christian the next. I would have thought that was blatantly obvious even to you Sandy.

In fact, Sandy you are a textbook case. Against all logic you keep parroting on about UKIP as if its the Saviour of the Nation when in political terms its a mere joke and is such an irrelevance that by comparison the BNP is far more likely to get more votes. Thats true isn't it, Sandy?

You know its true because the elections will prove it.

As for these people who keep changing their minds..theyre known as 'floating voters'..I'm sure you've heard of them!

Since when has it been illogical to fight for a cause Daz? The illogicality is in supporting a party that does not represent your wishes just so another one can't get into power.

I think the Tories are running sh*t scared of UKIP now.

A few of them are finally realising that nice but Dave is not going to stop his treachery by his betrayal of Britain to Europe with regard to sovereignty let alone the cost of EU corruption.

Last week we had two peers leaving the Tories for UKIP,

Today (yes TODAY) Stuart Wheeler and the Tory party's once biggest donor is now pledging his support to UKIP.

The UKIP Express is leaving the station and gaining speed.

Its time to jump aboard.

UKIP have said they will not contest any seat in which a Tory Euro- sceptic is standing in.

It is time for loyal Tory cowards to come out of the closet.

Its not high enough in most peoples reasons for voting. People vote for reasons that are of most concern to them. High Taxation and the state of Public services like the NHS and Public Transport and Pensions are more real to them than ephemeral worries such as the EU, GW..even Scottish Independence.

Its of no interest to me what the hell happens in Scotland - I dont live there and their of zero interest apart for lessening the Labour Vote.

Just as the Arab-Israeli War is of no interest to me either. People only vote out of their own self-interest and anyone who doesnt wants their head looking at.