Oh my God

[gus2]

it was my hero's 80th bithday today and I have not congratulated him. Long live Fidel Castro.
I have just realised maybe this was the cause of the fall of the last board. read it and weep sandy.

End the Embargo of Cuba
You may have heard that the US has an embargo in place against Cuba. US companies may not trade with Cuba. US citizens are prohibited from travelling to Cuba (except under special circumstances). Congress has passed a bill that makes the embargo even stronger, and imposes sanctions against any country that trades with Cuba.
A embargo is something that we normally do in times of war. Sometimes we use an embargo against a country whose misconduct has been condemned by the international community, but that is not the case with Cuba. Why are we at war with Cuba?

We have taken the most drastic measures imaginable against a country that poses virtually no threat to us. We have invaded Cuba (more than once), we have tried to asassinate Fidel Castro (many times), we have a naval base at Guantanamo Bay on Cuba (how would you feel if Russia had a military base on the US mainland?). We are attempting to starve children and other civilians. Why?

I am not a communist, and I am not defending Cuba or its political and economic systems. I just don't understand why we are at war with them. Unfortunately, I have not been able to get even a plausible answer to why we have an embargo against Cuba. Here are some of the (not so plasible) answers that I have come up with.

Because they are communist.
Well, China is communist and we trade with them (China even has most favored nation trading status, and until after Nixon went there we wouldn't even recognize them as the legitimate government). We trade with Vietnam and most other communist countries (what's left of 'em). We even traded with the Soviet Union back when they were our sworn enemy.
Because they are close friends of the evil Soviet Empire, and are only 75 miles from our coastline.
Someone forgot to tell the US State Department that there isn't an evil Soviet Empire anymore. We are even giving aid to Russia now. And the Soviet Union itself was closer to the US than Cuba is (honest! only a few miles from Alaska).
Because they make really good cigars.
Hey, this one is actually almost plausible. After all, a major sponsor of the bills to make the embargo stronger is Jesse Helms, the (wacko) senator from North Carolina (a state whose economy is dependent on tobacco). Go figure.
We have hated them for so long, we have forgotten the reasons.
If we suddenly changed our minds and started trading with Cuba, it would be embarassing to us. We might have had reasons to hate them in the past: The Soviet Union used to rub our face in Cuba; Fidel snubbed his nose at us, and got away with it. It seems like the only thing the US government can't forgive is being laughed at. We have forgiven Russia, China, and Vietnam, but we cannot forgive Cuba.
Politics.
To me, this is the most likely reason. In the US, small but fanatical groups can wield disproportionate polical power (this was built into the constitution on purpose, to protect the interests of minorities). There is a large Cuban-American population in Florida that absolutely hates Fidel Castro. Many of these people have reason to hate Castro -- they were rich landowners or businessmen who had their property seized during the Cuban revolution in the late 50's, and some have had family members imprisoned or tortured. These people will automatically vote against anyone who displays any sympathy with Cuba. I have heard that if this bloc had voted against Clinton in Clinton's first run for president, then he would have lost Florida. And if Clinton had lost the electoral votes of Florida, then he would have lost the election. Because most people in the US don't care about Cuba (or even know much about it), it is easier for the politicians to appease this bloc and avoid making them angry.
The only way this stupidity can stop is if the rest of the country wakes up and starts asking why we are at war with Cuba. Here are some reasons we should end the embargo with Cuba.
Because we look stupid.
We are interfering with the affairs of a separate country. It doesn't matter if we don't like Castro -- it is not up to us to choose the leaders of other countries. There are countries with far worse leaders, and we don't have embargos against them. If Cuban-Americans really want democracy restored to Cuba, then the last thing they should want is the US deciding who can or cannot be in charge there.
Because it is illegal.
The United Nations has condemned the US embargo against Cuba. The vote was every-country-in-the-world versus 2 (the US and Israel, and Israel was probably pressured by us). The embargo makes us look like a meddling imperialist bully of the worst kind.
Because it is wrong.
If you have ever wondered about the reasons why some people in the world don't like us yankees, here is a pretty darn good example. We are supposed to be the good guys.
Because it isn't working.
The effect of the embargo has been to make the Cuban people hate our government, not their government. In fact, it is pretty obvious that Fidel would be much less popular if he didn't have the US to blame for his country's problems.
Because we are missing a business opportunity.
Cuba is a prime market for US trade. Because we are the only country that doesn't trade with Cuba, we are missing this opportunity. Instead, Japan, Canada, and Mexico are doing lively business down there.
Why do I care?
I'm not Cuban. I don't have any close friends who care about Cuba. I guess I want to live in a country that doesn't act like a childish bully. I am also personally offended that the US government says that its citizens cannot freely travel to Cuba. And what I saw in Cuba makes me believe that we are doing grevious harm to innocent people.
What you can do.
I guess the best thing to do is talk. If the majority of Americans tell them that they think the embargo is wrong, then the politicians will listen.
For more information about Cuba, contact Global Exchange. They have a Cuba reader (compiled by Diana Downton) that contains reprints of articles about Cuba from well-known sources (for example, Time, Christian Science Monitor, The Nation, Business Week, Miami Herald, New York Times, Washington Post, and San Francisco Examiner). I have found Global Exchange's reporting on Cuba to be fair -- they include sources from both sides of the issues. Global Exchange also runs legal trips to Cuba. Contact them at Global Exchange, 2017 Mission Street #303, San Francisco, CA 94110, phone [phone], fax [phone], email [e-mail].


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People have sent me letters about the embargo (both for and against), some of which I have included here.
Here is a link to one such piece of email. Please read it. It has good information on things you can do.

Here is a link to email from someone talking about Castro.

Here is a piece of email from someone who thinks that Clinton will end the embargo. See why.

Here is email from someone who wants the embargo strengthened, not lifted.

How do people in other countries view the US embargo against Cuba? Here are some letters from people in Canada, Puerto Rico, and the UK who have visited Cuba.

Here are letters from Cubans (living outside of Cuba).

The Center For International Policy has a series of articles about Cuba and the embargo that I highly recommend, especially "The U.S. - Cuba Imbroglio."

Finally, there is an EXCELLENT article in the March 11, 1996 issue of The New Yorker magazine, called "Mutually Assured Stupidity", about the embargo and the downing of aircraft by the Cuban military.



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Return to the Main Cuba Page. View photographs and commentary on Cuba.
Go to Wm Leler's Home Page. Contains travel photos and music.


Gus

[sandywinder]

I bet your letters do not include those from homosexuals persecuted by Castro.

I bet your letters do not include those of Trades Union Leaders imprisoned by Castro.

I bet your letters do not include those of Afro-Caribbeans discriminated against by Castro.

The Comment-is-free board today has two articles. The first is one that says that the Americans should intervene to stop Israel (by Hattersley). The one below it says that Cuba should be left alone, despite the fact that half the population have been on meagre food rations for forty years while the other half live in luxury.

A country abundant in fertile land but has to be a net importer of food to survive.

That is Communism for you.

I see your post quotes someone who says this:

<<< I am also personally offended that the US government says that its citizens cannot freely travel to Cuba. >>>

The hypocrite does not say that he is not offended that a lot of people daily risk their lives to escape from Fortress Cuba.

[gus2]

sandywinder said:

I bet your letters do not include those from homosexuals persecuted by Castro.

I bet your letters do not include those of Trades Union Leaders imprisoned by Castro.

I bet your letters do not include those of Afro-Caribbeans discriminated against by Castro.

The Comment-is-free board today has two articles. The first is one that says that the Americans should intervene to stop Israel (by Hattersley). The one below it says that Cuba should be left alone, despite the fact that half the population have been on meagre food rations for forty years while the other half live in luxury.

A country abundant in fertile land but has to be a net importer of food to survive.

That is Communism for you.

I see your post quotes someone who says this:

<<< I am also personally offended that the US government says that its citizens cannot freely travel to Cuba. >>>

The hypocrite does not say that he is not offended that a lot of people daily risk their lives to escape from Fortress Cuba.

Again you fail to mention the embargo that the US has placed on Cuba. Why have they done it and why don't you mention it?
If they are restricted in trading with the most powerful country in the world what else would you expect. If other countries in the region would like to trade with Cuba the US makes it known that they do not agree with it, and anyone that does will have the same fate as Cuba thrust upon it. Viva Castro Viva Cuba.

Gus

[purple joggers]

Wasn't there a programme on TV the other week about Cuba and its health system? The people seemed poorly-off but more contented than most, and the health system put the NHS to shame.
Many of the students at the medical universities were Blacks from the USA (where, it was inferred they were disadvantaged when it came to getting places, because they went disproportionately to Whites).

For about 5 years up to about a year ago, I worked with a Cuban. He was 40-45 years old having grown up in the States when his family moved there in the 70s. He still had aunts, uncles and cousins in Cuba and went each year to visit them.
He said he and most other ex-pat Cubans he knew didn't dislike Castro, and that, except for a few radical and embittered ex-pat Cubans, this assertion was a myth spread by the US government.

He thought it was a pity the embargo had lasted so long because, when it eventually goes when Castro dies, in all likelihood the American international companies will rapidly move in and destroy the culture and possibly increase the poverty while making themselves and only a few Cubans rich.
"Americanisation and eroding of cultures into homogeneity as theyre are gradually nibbled away by huge American conglomerates" as Daz wrote with concern in another thread.

[gus2]

minty said:

Wasn't there a programme on TV the other week about Cuba and its health system? The people seemed poorly-off but more contented than most, and the health system put the NHS to shame.
Many of the students at the medical universities were Blacks from the USA (where, it was inferred they were disadvantaged when it came to getting places, because they went disproportionately to Whites).

For about 5 years up to about a year ago, I worked with a Cuban. He was 40-45 years old having grown up in the States when his family moved there in the 70s. He still had aunts, uncles and cousins in Cuba and went each year to visit them.
He said he and most other ex-pat Cubans he knew didn't dislike Castro, and that, except for a few radical and embittered ex-pat Cubans, this assertion was a myth spread by the US government.

He thought it was a pity the embargo had lasted so long because, when it eventually goes when Castro dies, in all likelihood the American international companies will rapidly move in and destroy the culture and possibly increase the poverty while making themselves and only a few Cubans rich.
"Americanisation and eroding of cultures into homogeneity as theyre are gradually nibbled away by huge American conglomerates" as Daz wrote with concern in another thread.

Oh my God am I doomed to keep saying hear hear to all your posts
sandy will be by now rapidly searching the Daily Wail and Torygraph for something to the contary. <sucker>


gus

[treelady]

hm. my son and Fidel Castro share birthdays. Oh dear!

[gus2]

treelady said:

hm. my son and Fidel Castro share birthdays. Oh dear!

Change his name at once to Fidel or at least Che Guevara.He will thank you as long as you live, unless that is he wants to join the Conservatives

gus

[sandywinder]

gus2 said:

sandywinder said:

I bet your letters do not include those from homosexuals persecuted by Castro.

I bet your letters do not include those of Trades Union Leaders imprisoned by Castro.

I bet your letters do not include those of Afro-Caribbeans discriminated against by Castro.

The Comment-is-free board today has two articles. The first is one that says that the Americans should intervene to stop Israel (by Hattersley). The one below it says that Cuba should be left alone, despite the fact that half the population have been on meagre food rations for forty years while the other half live in luxury.

A country abundant in fertile land but has to be a net importer of food to survive.

That is Communism for you.

I see your post quotes someone who says this:

<<< I am also personally offended that the US government says that its citizens cannot freely travel to Cuba. >>>

The hypocrite does not say that he is not offended that a lot of people daily risk their lives to escape from Fortress Cuba.

Again you fail to mention the embargo that the US has placed on Cuba. Why have they done it and why don't you mention it?
If they are restricted in trading with the most powerful country in the world what else would you expect. If other countries in the region would like to trade with Cuba the US makes it known that they do not agree with it, and anyone that does will have the same fate as Cuba thrust upon it. Viva Castro Viva Cuba.

Gus

Just a minute. Exactly why should America be forced to trade with any country it doesn't want to? Come to that why should ANY country trade with another country in which people are persecuted for their colour, sexual orientation, try to give workers a better deal and basic human rights are non existent.

I bet you didn't bleat about the boycott of South Africa when apartheid was in existence.

Come on Gus, don't join the hypocrites.

[sandywinder]

minty said:

Wasn't there a programme on TV the other week about Cuba and its health system? The people seemed poorly-off but more contented than most, and the health system put the NHS to shame.
Many of the students at the medical universities were Blacks from the USA (where, it was inferred they were disadvantaged when it came to getting places, because they went disproportionately to Whites).

For about 5 years up to about a year ago, I worked with a Cuban. He was 40-45 years old having grown up in the States when his family moved there in the 70s. He still had aunts, uncles and cousins in Cuba and went each year to visit them.
He said he and most other ex-pat Cubans he knew didn't dislike Castro, and that, except for a few radical and embittered ex-pat Cubans, this assertion was a myth spread by the US government.

He thought it was a pity the embargo had lasted so long because, when it eventually goes when Castro dies, in all likelihood the American international companies will rapidly move in and destroy the culture and possibly increase the poverty while making themselves and only a few Cubans rich.
"Americanisation and eroding of cultures into homogeneity as theyre are gradually nibbled away by huge American conglomerates" as Daz wrote with concern in another thread.

As far as I am aware the Americans did not hold a gun to the head of councils allowing McDonalds and KFC in their towns and cities. And as far as I am aware nobody is holding a gun to the head of people to visit these establishments.

I bet such freedoms are what the ex-Cubans love so much about America.

They may have an excellent health service but much of the population can not even afford to buy aspirins. NO NHS for them.

www.cubaverdad.net/references/for_cubans_a_bitter_pill.htm

I would sympathise a little more with Castro and Co if they had not made such a bloody mess of running their own agricultural economy. A fertile country that has to import large amounts of food (though from what we are told about embargoes, this supposedly could not happen) because their own produce is rotting in the ground.

The poorer locals can not get any petrol for cars and buses, despite imports from nearby Venezuela, while the elite drive around in air-conditioned limousines with no problem at all.

But after 40 years of such a brilliant, benevolent dictator WHY do they need to trade with America at all.

If America did not exist, who would they blame then for their mediocrity?

This is the same type of ignorant bull-shit excuse that the Commies in the USSR chose to fool all their gullible supporters. It did not hold water with them and it doesn't with Cuba.

[gus2]

sandywinder said:

minty said:

Wasn't there a programme on TV the other week about Cuba and its health system? The people seemed poorly-off but more contented than most, and the health system put the NHS to shame.
Many of the students at the medical universities were Blacks from the USA (where, it was inferred they were disadvantaged when it came to getting places, because they went disproportionately to Whites).

For about 5 years up to about a year ago, I worked with a Cuban. He was 40-45 years old having grown up in the States when his family moved there in the 70s. He still had aunts, uncles and cousins in Cuba and went each year to visit them.
He said he and most other ex-pat Cubans he knew didn't dislike Castro, and that, except for a few radical and embittered ex-pat Cubans, this assertion was a myth spread by the US government.

He thought it was a pity the embargo had lasted so long because, when it eventually goes when Castro dies, in all likelihood the American international companies will rapidly move in and destroy the culture and possibly increase the poverty while making themselves and only a few Cubans rich.
"Americanisation and eroding of cultures into homogeneity as theyre are gradually nibbled away by huge American conglomerates" as Daz wrote with concern in another thread.

As far as I am aware the Americans did not hold a gun to the head of councils allowing McDonalds and KFC in their towns and cities. And as far as I am aware nobody is holding a gun to the head of people to visit these establishments.

I bet such freedoms are what the ex-Cubans love so much about America.

They may have an excellent health service but much of the population can not even afford to buy aspirins. NO NHS for them.

www.cubaverdad.net/references/for_cubans_a_bitter_pill.htm

I would sympathise a little more with Castro and Co if they had not made such a bloody mess of running their own agricultural economy. A fertile country that has to import large amounts of food (though from what we are told about embargoes, this supposedly could not happen) because their own produce is rotting in the ground.

The poorer locals can not get any petrol for cars and buses, despite imports from nearby Venezuela, while the elite drive around in air-conditioned limousines with no problem at all.

But after 40 years of such a brilliant, benevolent dictator WHY do they need to trade with America at all.

If America did not exist, who would they blame then for their mediocrity?

This is the same type of ignorant bull-nuts excuse that the Commies in the USSR chose to fool all their gullible supporters. It did not hold water with them and it doesn't with Cuba.

You say if America did not exist who would they blame for their mediocrity. The problem is that America does exist and actively persues a belligerent program aginst Cuba. Do not forget that America invaded it at one time. Along with a host of other countries that are not enamoured with the rapacious Capitalist system.

gus

[sandywinder]

Whales also exist. Perhaps they are the ones behind all the poverty and injustice to be found in Cuba. Then it again it could just be the fact that it is run by a dictator who doesn't give a monkeys about half the people, agriculture, human rights and so on.

I can just imagine the paroxysms of rage of the Woolly Minded Liberals had half the well-documented injustices of Cuba existed in Britain.

But because he is a Communist dictator these are all forgotten as insignificant and there is always somebody else to blame. Sound familiar. It should do, it is Labour's modus operandi.

They destabilise the country with mass immigration, stir up half of them with their foreign policy in the Middle East and cause massive queues at Heathrow Airport and whose fault is it? Why BAAs, of course. At least that is who Labour's McShane is blaming because he got delayed in it all.

But to get back to America. Look at Egypt, Jordan and Libya. All Muslim countries that can get on with America these days. If they can, why can't Cuba?

[gus2]

sandywinder said:

Whales also exist. Perhaps they are the ones behind all the poverty and injustice to be found in Cuba. Then it again it could just be the fact that it is run by a dictator who doesn't give a monkeys about half the people, agriculture, human rights and so on.

I can just imagine the paroxysms of rage of the Woolly Minded Liberals had half the well-documented injustices of Cuba existed in Britain.

But because he is a Communist dictator these are all forgotten as insignificant and there is always somebody else to blame. Sound familiar. It should do, it is Labour's modus operandi.

They destabilise the country with mass immigration, stir up half of them with their foreign policy in the Middle East and cause massive queues at Heathrow Airport and whose fault is it? Why BAAs, of course. At least that is who Labour's McShane is blaming because he got delayed in it all.

But to get back to America. Look at Egypt, Jordan and Libya. All Muslim countries that can get on with America these days. If they can, why can't Cuba?

As far as I know it is is only recently that the US lifted the trade embargo with Libya. It was also suffering because of it. Why do you not admit that Cuba would flourish if America would let it. They do not want the world to see that a Communist country can also do well slap bang on their doorstep.

gus

[sandywinder]

Why don't you admit that Cuba will never flourish while it is run by incompetent tyrants who don't give a toss about anybody but themselves and their friends? Why can't they have fair elections for kick-off? Why do they persecute people who do not meet their standards and don't agree with everything they say?

Why is everything in the world the fault of the USA? They are only one country. How has America stopped Cuba trading with Russia or China or Venezuela or Iran or North Korea or anybody in the EU?

As I said if America did not exist the excusists for evil people like Castro would have to come up with some other pathetic, unconvincing excuse.

Why should a country be forced to trade with another country?

Would you have said the same about South Africa when they ahd apartheid. Should Britain have continued to trade normally with South Africa?

I expect your standards would have turned round 180 degress over that issue.

But when an evil dictator like Castro comes along persecting half his people and forcing them to flee the country for their lives, then it is quite alright for him, but only because he is a Communist.

I suppose you would not have wanted a trade embargo with Stalin or Mao either.

[gus2]

sandywinder said:

Why don't you admit that Cuba will never flourish while it is run by incompetent tyrants who don't give a toss about anybody but themselves and their friends? Why can't they have fair elections for kick-off? Why do they persecute people who do not meet their standards and don't agree with everything they say?

Why is everything in the world the fault of the USA? They are only one country. How has America stopped Cuba trading with Russia or China or Venezuela or Iran or North Korea or anybody in the EU?

As I said if America did not exist the excusists for evil people like Castro would have to come up with some other pathetic, unconvincing excuse.

Why should a country be forced to trade with another country?

Would you have said the same about South Africa when they ahd apartheid. Should Britain have continued to trade normally with South Africa?

I expect your standards would have turned round 180 degress over that issue.

But when an evil dictator like Castro comes along persecting half his people and forcing them to flee the country for their lives, then it is quite alright for him, but only because he is a Communist.

I suppose you would not have wanted a trade embargo with Stalin or Mao either.

Yes but what you do not take into account is the stupidity of the average voter. The Capitalists as I have mentioned have a thousand tricks up their collective sleeves to lull the voter into thinking he will be well of under that system. Sometimes one has to be cruel to be kind don't ya know.

gus

[sandywinder]

gus2 said:

sandywinder said:

Why don't you admit that Cuba will never flourish while it is run by incompetent tyrants who don't give a toss about anybody but themselves and their friends? Why can't they have fair elections for kick-off? Why do they persecute people who do not meet their standards and don't agree with everything they say?

Why is everything in the world the fault of the USA? They are only one country. How has America stopped Cuba trading with Russia or China or Venezuela or Iran or North Korea or anybody in the EU?

As I said if America did not exist the excusists for evil people like Castro would have to come up with some other pathetic, unconvincing excuse.

Why should a country be forced to trade with another country?

Would you have said the same about South Africa when they ahd apartheid. Should Britain have continued to trade normally with South Africa?

I expect your standards would have turned round 180 degress over that issue.

But when an evil dictator like Castro comes along persecting half his people and forcing them to flee the country for their lives, then it is quite alright for him, but only because he is a Communist.

I suppose you would not have wanted a trade embargo with Stalin or Mao either.

Yes but what you do not take into account is the stupidity of the average voter. The Capitalists as I have mentioned have a thousand tricks up their collective sleeves to lull the voter into thinking he will be well of under that system. Sometimes one has to be cruel to be kind don't ya know.

gus

That's the biggest load of bollocks you have ever come up with and there has been plenty in the past.

Tricks? Tricks like affluence, high wages, high standard of living, freedom of choice, freedom of speech and human rights, you mean.

But obviously you prefer people to starve to death or freeze to death or be locked away in Gulags - as many Communists have done in the past .