Is it cricket?

[E.D. Wivens]

pinkgoyle said:

Sorry Gus but "Cricket bore" is a tautology. "Politics bore" on the other hand is an oxymoron.

Eh? Isn’t that the wrong way round?

minty said:

I read that the umpire…neither produced pictorial evidence nor considered that the same ball had been used by both sides during these 56 overs.

But there’s nothing in the Laws about needing pictorial evidence. It certainly does appear that the umpires may have gone out on a limb (particularly given the level of controversy which they must have realised would ensue) but it doesn’t mean they were wrong to apply the laws as they did.

It seems that the umpires decided that the condition of the ball was being altered from inspecting it. I suppose that judgements about the state of the ball are based on inexact assessment but it is possible that there was something sufficiently odd about damage to the ball to convince the umpires. Unfortunately, very few people have seen the ball at close-quarters so we only have the official statements of the ICC and the PCB to go on. The umpires are, currently, obliged not to comment, under ICC regulations but I did read that the reason that the ball was changed was that the ball’s quarter seam had been raised. If it was, indeed, raised it is hard to think of any way this could have happened as a product of normal wear and tear.

minty said:

the umpire (who apparently has a history of being excessively conservative in his attitudes)

I’m not sure about excessively conservative. Opinion seems to vary widely about Darrel Hair – in a number of Asian countries he is seen as an over-officious hate figure (Imran Khan called him a “mini-Hitler” the other day), whereas in Australia, he’s viewed as a man of the utmost integrity, prepared to take a stand where weaker characters allow the laws of the game to be flouted. Two of the more widely respected umpires in the game – David Sheppard and Simon Taufel – have given support to Darrel Hair’s actions, although it’s true that they would both probably have handled the situation very differently. It’s also worth remembering that, for all the history between Pakistan and Darrel Hair, the decision to replace the ball was taken jointly by both umpires. Given the serious nature of the decision, to have gone along with it just to keep your colleague happy would have been a very odd decision.

minty said:

One wonders whether the umpire…may further inflame racial tension, especially since half of the 23,000 spectators were Pakistan fans

The umpires, match referee and senior referee are all from “neutral” countries so I wouldn’t have thought that it ought to alter relations in Britain.

[Daz Madrigal]

minty said:

madrigalman said:

I'm not stirring the pot, man, its plain common sense.

It wasn’t the association with drugs to which I reacted but the remark about no skill. If skill becomes the basis of what’s the best sport, we’ll all have to fall asleep whilst watching golf.

I don’t doubt that taking drugs has played a big role in cycling, but one should also remember that the International Cycling Union has been for years at the forefront of dope-testing, and has therefore automatically found more ‘culprits’. The UCI had some substances on its barred list long before the Olympic Committee did.
Some sports have lagged far behind, both in what’s included on their list of drugs and in how often tests have been performed, swimming notably.

In the UK, over recent years dope/drug-taking has been more prevalent in archery, athletics, body-building, bowls (!), boxing, cricket, judo, power-lifting, rugby league, shooting, short-track ice-skating, snooker & billiards (yes, Gus!), ten-pin bowling, weight-lifting and wrestling, than in cycling.

To make small of this by saying some examples were probably like Botham having a few joints after a match, calling it ‘everyday stuff after arduous effort’ (as you did, Daz) only allows me to say well then there are many examples in cycling which are similar, like when cyclist Ulrich was once banned for having taken ecstasy at a disco. And I think you might agree, his effort was considerably more arduous than a typical cricket player engages in.

Well you've totally invented the suggestion that anything skillfull = entertainment. On that basis a game of darts would be scintillating entertainment

I'd prefer it if you didnt put words into my mouth, Pj.

I'm not a cycling aficionado but I do know that its common knowledge to everyone but the most brainwashed enthusiast that drug abuse amongst cyclists is widespread. The fact that like track and field athletes it can be masked simply masks the problem as well.

I know there are a few of the brainwashed on other boards and its truly lamentable that these people turn a blind eye to EPO and are naive enough to complain that they are not given a fair chance. Someone like Novo/Shasta/Greeneyes/Nursie/Jac or whatever her bloomin name is this week! can make excuse after excuse but I'm sorry you can try and run away from the facts but Daz will find you, grab you by the neck and show you the evidence in front of your own green eyes.

The winner was found guilty of drug taking was he not?

Even you implied that Lance Armstrong was probably on drugs but was an expert at masking them didnt you?

How many others are likewise masked?

You mention Ulrich..tell me how many of the main favourites were stopped from racing after drug testing?

It was virtually ALL of them, Pj.

Just how much evidence do you need?

[Daz Madrigal]

<< To make small of this by saying some examples were probably like Botham having a few joints after a match, calling it ‘everyday stuff after arduous effort’ >>

Dearie me, Pj..you are clever enough to know better than this.

To imply being doped up on marijuana is going to improve skill levels is akin to suggesting that Wayne Rooney would play better were he drunk (sometimes i think he 'is' to be fair) or that racing drivers would drive better after a few joints!

Your talking garbage, pal.

[purple joggers]

madrigalman said:

Anyway cheating is all part of the game..as long as they are not taking drugs, it's acceptable

This is an interesting perspective, and one that I can't wholly disagree with, though I think in some sports it's taken too far, or allowed too much, professional football being an example. Much of what is allowed to happen at professional level isn't tolerated at amateur level.

Following the idea through, it also means that taking shortcuts in a bike or running race is, well, 'part of the game' too. In one of the first Tour de France, it was later discovered that the first 5 overall at Paris had all taken the train during one of the stages, so they were disqualified. Which I suppose was just their bad luck, like an own goal deciding the Cup Final.

And nowadays, at each major city marathon, you find that afterwards 5-10 people are disqualified for having taken the Tube partway. They are also cheating themselves of course ... but people are usually kinder in their judgement about themselves. Anyway, don't some role models show us it's cool to cheat.

[Daz Madrigal]

<< Following the idea through, it also means that taking shortcuts in a bike or running race is, well, 'part of the game' too>>

;D

Well THAT would definitely make me watch. Its more impish behaviour than downright lying. When someone goes on TV and says on many previous occasions - incl Armstrong - that I 'deplore and despise anyone who takes drugs' and then goes on to take the himself then he totally lowers all respect and moreover self respect.

To then carry on suggesting that he is innocent is a perfect case of 'when in a hole stop digging!'. He would have EARNT respect if he'd held his hands up and said 'fair cop' you've got me bang to rights and now I will tell you how widespread it is.

Of course he wouldnt do so..partly because Yanks dont normally say 'its a fair cop, Guv ..u got me bang to rights, Squire'.

[purple joggers]

madrigalman said:

Just how much evidence do you need?

It's not that I think the victors and the highly-placed in cycling are always innocent, just that I don't think one should tar every (professional) cyclist with the same brush.
And not only does this seem to happen, but also the media practically single out cycling as the almost sole culprit sport even though it isn't, certainly not in the UK.

It's true cycling that, worldwide, cycling has the one of the highest rate of positives, 3.78%, as against 2.14% average in all sports (I've just looked the figures up). Only billiards, sumo-wrestling, golf and bridge(! - It must be Dulcie at the gin) come off worse, none of which are Olympic sports.

However, proportionally to the number of competitive cyclists as against the number of participants in other sports, cycling is pretty heavily checked, more than in other sports. And both in and out of competition (some sports do not yet do 'out of competition'). It's therefore almost inevitable that cycling will come off badly.

[sandywinder]

To get back to cricket, there seems to be one small thing that most people have overlooked. When a cricket ball is repeatedly whacked out of the ground and hits concrete and brick walls as happened with Peterson especially, there is bound to be a lot of damage to said ball.

There is plenty of evidence to support this and you only need to use your noggin to realise it.

HOWEVER there was no, zero, zilch, nada evidence whatsoever from 12 TV cameras (which have been closely checked) and thousands of cameras and spectators to even hint that any of the Pakistanis did ANYTHING wrong.

So what Hair is saying is that he THOUGHT the Pakistanis were cheating.

Now how would this evidence stand up in any court of law?

Would a suspect be convicted if a policeman said he thought the man was going to beat someone up so he arrested him first? The thought is just so absurd.

Yes I agree that there is a lot of cheating in sport but when children are encouraged to cheat in coursework,etc is it any wonder?

And would it be fair if Armstrong or any other cyclist was banned from cycling because some pompous ass just THOUGHT the cyclist had taken drugs?

[Daz Madrigal]

Well fair dinkum as the Umpire would say..if he was mad.

But..surely we have a right to see the ball for ourselves. Usually its easily given away because the damage is primarily on ONE side so that negates your point totally, Sandy!

[Daz Madrigal]

I think both Imran Khan and Dickie Bird can be completely ignored because theyre both nincompoops and Khan is acting for purely selfish reasons and Bird has always been a bit slow mentally.

The Umpire is an Aussie but I'd predict that he's made a scapegoat because the fact is that honesty doesnt pay.

Bird and Khan are both dishonest people.

[sandywinder]

madrigalman said:

Well fair dinkum as the Umpire would say..if he was mad.

But..surely we have a right to see the ball for ourselves. Usually its easily given away because the damage is primarily on ONE side so that negates your point totally, Sandy!

Err no! The ball is always fiddled with by players to put shine on one side to induce swerve, swing etc. They don't just rub it against their groins for fun. Though it worked for me. Seems Gus has missed out on another source of pleasure.

But I agree with you that the ball should definitely be offered up for public inspection to provide any evidence that would prove or disprove the allegation of cheating. Though I strongly suspect it will not do so either way. So we will probably be left with a doubt. And to accuse someone of cheating needs much more than that in my book.

If there is evidence to show they have cheated then it is up to Hair and the other umpire to provide it - not for the Pakistanis to prove they didn't. Or it bloody well should be.

[sandywinder]

madrigalman said:

I think both Imran Khan and Dickie Bird can be completely ignored because theyre both nincompoops and Khan is acting for purely selfish reasons and Bird has always been a bit slow mentally.

The Umpire is an Aussie but I'd predict that he's made a scapegoat because the fact is that honesty doesnt pay.

Bird and Khan are both dishonest people.

It looks to me that you have decided that the Pakistanis are also guilty without seeing any evidence. But one thing I do know about cricket is that all umpires OFTEN get the decisions they make wrong. Whether LBW or anything else.

[Daz Madrigal]

I'm 100 per cent positive that using various scientific tests it can easily be proven.

One of them would take all of 10 seconds. If its tampered with on one side and the damage shows evidence of fingernails or signs that someones sank his teeth into it then that enough proof for me.

As for blaming the Umpire for some racist anti-Pakistani stance such as the one Khan is suggesting ..well thats pretty pathetic in my eyes and a slur on Aussies.

Dicky Bird was a good umpire but he's always been a typical english likeable twit along the lines of Eddie the Eagle. He's done a good job in the past now he should retire gracefullyand stop making silly remarks. He's a show off who wants to make a name for himself so its always 'well I would have done this, that and the other'.

Fortunately we had someone bold enough to make a decision. I'm with Mathilde!

[Daz Madrigal]

<< In one of the first Tour de France, it was later discovered that the first 5 overall at Paris had all taken the train during one of the stages, so they were disqualified. >>

I've no idea why, Pj..I would have taken the train meself. Good thinking on their part I say! ;D

[Daz Madrigal]

I don't want to diss cycling as if its the only sport not worth watching due to widespread drug usage. I'd include weightlifting as well due to widespread steroid abuse. The facts admitted by drug testers themselves is that the masking agents mean the weightlifters are always one step in front of the testing capabilities.

Its all very sad.. best stick to watching snooker, darts and football. All good wholesome working class sports where several pints of beer are the preferred drug of choice

[Nathan deGargoyle]

wivens said:

pinkgoyle said:

Sorry Gus but "Cricket bore" is a tautology. "Politics bore" on the other hand is an oxymoron.

Eh? Isn’t that the wrong way round?

Yes! Must remember to put brain in gear before engaging fingers.