Gordan Brown

[sandywinder]

gus2 said:

sandywinder said:

So you hadn't noticed that the government of the day are more than quite adept at picking the person's pockets then?

Have you ever heard of income tax, inheritance tax, VAT, National insurance, council tax?

The difference is that with private companies you normally get a choice as to who is providing your services and if you don't like it you can go elsewhere, whether it is Ryanair, BA or Easyjet.

But with the state you are ripped off without any say in the matter
at all. You can not go elsewhere, apart from prison for trying to avoid being ripped off.

I don't know how many times I need to tell you all this.

Let's put it this way, the next time you get a new car would you prefer to be forced to buy the first one that you were shown at a price decided by the car dealer or choose one for yourself from different dealers?

I know which one I would prefer.

I do believe that since i was nobbut a lad, there have been a succession of Labour governments running this stone set in a silver sea, I can't recall the exact number but it is quite a few, yet I can not recall one that forced me to buy anything.
You are living in Lancashire sandy i believe, and not some South American banana republic or a tin pot African state. I was beginning to wonder.

gus

Tut tut Gus you are well and truly under the state hypnotist.

Who do you think does your policing and security service?

Who does your education services?

Who does all your healthcare services?

Who empties your waste bins when they feel like coming round?

Who allows you the use of the roads to drive the car that you can now CHOOSE to buy?

You are buying ALL these services and many more besides, whether you want them or not (as in the case of schools).

OK Gus, after the count of three I will snap my fingers, you will wake up and the feeling of reality will come back to you.

One - you are becoming aware of your presence

Two - your eyes are opening

Three - you are back in the real world and you are going to think for yourself.

Snap!

[mango]

Who would you like to be responsible for all these things, and how would you like thm to be financed?

[gus2]

sandywinder said:

gus2 said:

I do believe that since i was nobbut a lad, there have been a succession of Labour governments running this stone set in a silver sea, I can't recall the exact number but it is quite a few, yet I can not recall one that forced me to buy anything.
You are living in Lancashire sandy i believe, and not some South American banana republic or a tin pot African state. I was beginning to wonder.

gus

Tut tut Gus you are well and truly under the state hypnotist.

Who do you think does your policing and security service?

Who does your education services?

Who does all your healthcare services?

Who empties your waste bins when they feel like coming round?

Who allows you the use of the roads to drive the car that you can now CHOOSE to buy?

You are buying ALL these services and many more besides, whether you want them or not (as in the case of schools).

OK Gus, after the count of three I will snap my fingers, you will wake up and the feeling of reality will come back to you.

One - you are becoming aware of your presence

Two - your eyes are opening

Three - you are back in the real world and you are going to think for yourself.

Snap!

state hypnotist ....private not allowed on the NHS.

security sevices including some of HM bed and breakfast.... private.

education....... lots of private schools

health care......... part privitised.

Waste disposal..... private.

Parts of the motorways now private toll roads and some privately managed

Bloody hell sandy youv'e burnt the toast again.

gus

[sandywinder]

I see you haven't answered my question. Obviously it is far too difficult. I will ask it again seeing you have had far more time to think it over.

The next time you get a new car would you prefer to be forced to buy the first one that you were shown at a price decided by the car dealer or choose one for yourself from different dealers?

If that question is too difficult to answer let us assume it is a pizza delivery service.

At present you can choose whichever pizza you want, from whichever company you want. If you don't like the quality or price or service of one you can go to another.

Or would you prefer to be told that you MUST buy a pizza (whether you wanted one or not) from a SINGLE delivery service and it MUST be a certain type of pizza and you can't complain if it is not cooked properly or late being delivered or grossly overpriced (sound familiar)?

Are you with me or are you still in a trance?

[sandywinder]

mango said:

Who would you like to be responsible for all these things, and how would you like thm to be financed?

I am not saying that any of these should be in private hands, certainly not policing, although many people and businesses are so appallled by the poor standard of service of policing that they have paid for their own private security arrangement.

The argument I have is that the state should ONLY be involved in running concerns, that for whatever reason (such as policing), can't fairly be done by a competitive system. And these concerns and people in charge of them should be ACCOUNTABLE to the public. At present we have fiasco after fiasco of public sector failures and incompetence and NOBODY is held accountable.

So £8 Billion is lost in one year (equal to about £130 per head) through incompetent handling of the VAT system through well telegraphed carousel fraud (it has been around since 1999) and nobody is to blame, least of all Gordon Brown.

Back on topic again, I see.

[gus2]

sandywinder said:

I see you haven't answered my question. Obviously it is far too difficult. I will ask it again seeing you have had far more time to think it over.

The next time you get a new car would you prefer to be forced to buy the first one that you were shown at a price decided by the car dealer or choose one for yourself from different dealers?

If that question is too difficult to answer let us assume it is a pizza delivery service.

At present you can choose whichever pizza you want, from whichever company you want. If you don't like the quality or price or service of one you can go to another.

Or would you prefer to be told that you MUST buy a pizza (whether you wanted one or not) from a SINGLE delivery service and it MUST be a certain type of pizza and you can't complain if it is not cooked properly or late being delivered or grossly overpriced (sound familiar)?

Are you with me or are you still in a trance?

As usual you can not see the forest for the trees. I have not the slightest objection to any businesses run privately if they are not ESSENTIAL public services sorry about the upper case but it so hard with you when all you seem to be concerned about is wether to have salami or black olives with your pizza.
Why in the name of the Holy One should something that I have no choice but to use, be in the hands of Capitalists who want to make a profit on WHATEVER (sorry again) they do.
What you fail to understand is that public services by their very nature will run at loss if they are done in the public interest. The difference should be made up by taxes and not making war a la New Labour. Or screaming Sieg Heil.

gus

[sandywinder]

For someone extolling the virtues of Communism and state owned EVERYTHING so often, you have changed your tune pretty quickly.

However let's look at all these ESSENTIAL 'public services' that 'have' to be run by the state.

Take the removal of waste, as an example. Why does that have to be removed by local councils? Why is it so essential the state must do it?

Why can't people choose for themselves which operators take away your rubbish? If they fail to do it properly you can go elsewhere. But you can't do a thing about if if you have to wait six weeks for the local council to locate your property and remove your settee, as happened to me recently.

Not only could you go elsewhere if it was private, you could choose an operator that not only gave good service but amazingly gave good value for the job as well. As it is we are ripped off every year with extortionate council tax demands for a service that is actually getting WORSE by only having fortnightly delivery.

Personally I don't give a monkeys how much profit the private operator makes as long as I get good service and value. Because I am not a jealous person.

And there is always the government around to poke their nose in (OFWASte) and ensure that private operators do the job legally.

[gus2]

sandywinder said:

For someone extolling the virtues of Communism and state owned EVERYTHING so often, you have changed your tune pretty quickly.

However let's look at all these ESSENTIAL 'public services' that 'have' to be run by the state.

Take the removal of waste, as an example. Why does that have to be removed by local councils? Why is it so essential the state must do it?

Why can't people choose for themselves which operators take away your rubbish? If they fail to do it properly you can go elsewhere. But you can't do a thing about if if you have to wait six weeks for the local council to locate your property and remove your settee, as happened to me recently.

Not only could you go elsewhere if it was private, you could choose an operator that not only gave good service but amazingly gave good value for the job as well. As it is we are ripped off every year with extortionate council tax demands for a service that is actually getting WORSE by only having fortnightly delivery.

Personally I don't give a monkeys how much profit the private operator makes as long as I get good service and value. Because I am not a jealous person.

And there is always the government around to poke their nose in (OFWASte) and ensure that private operators do the job legally.

Sandy did not you and I discuss the greed of Capitalism and indeed the greed of the individual, world wide that keeps Capitalism up and running. Did I not say at the time that benign world Communism would be a good thing but that "Greed" will not let it happen. You forgot, what else have you forgotten sandy. You burnt the toast, I asked for black olives and I got salami. You will have to snap out it.
So the private waste disposal operators if we dont like them they can go elsewhere "just like that" you are beginning to sound like Tommy Cooper. Do you think for one minute that they sign a contract for six weeks with the council in question. They sign them for years. They are not going to buy disposal trucks, paint them up in their livery, employ people with uniforms and then be told they can go elsewhere "just like that" The council would be took to the cleaners by Sue, Grabbit and Runne before they can say "just like that"
Anyway even if they could the next private operator would be just as bad or maybe worse.
Sandy please did i not say to you "no onion and easy on the cheese" when will you bring the right order?

gus

[sandywinder]

gus2 said:

sandywinder said:

For someone extolling the virtues of Communism and state owned EVERYTHING so often, you have changed your tune pretty quickly.

However let's look at all these ESSENTIAL 'public services' that 'have' to be run by the state.

Take the removal of waste, as an example. Why does that have to be removed by local councils? Why is it so essential the state must do it?

Why can't people choose for themselves which operators take away your rubbish? If they fail to do it properly you can go elsewhere. But you can't do a thing about if if you have to wait six weeks for the local council to locate your property and remove your settee, as happened to me recently.

Not only could you go elsewhere if it was private, you could choose an operator that not only gave good service but amazingly gave good value for the job as well. As it is we are ripped off every year with extortionate council tax demands for a service that is actually getting WORSE by only having fortnightly delivery.

Personally I don't give a monkeys how much profit the private operator makes as long as I get good service and value. Because I am not a jealous person.

And there is always the government around to poke their nose in (OFWASte) and ensure that private operators do the job legally.

Sandy did not you and I discuss the greed of Capitalism and indeed the greed of the individual, world wide that keeps Capitalism up and running. Did I not say at the time that benign world Communism would be a good thing but that "Greed" will not let it happen. You forgot, what else have you forgotten sandy. You burnt the toast, I asked for black olives and I got salami. You will have to snap out it.
So the private waste disposal operators if we dont like them they can go elsewhere "just like that" you are beginning to sound like Tommy Cooper. Do you think for one minute that they sign a contract for six weeks with the council in question. They sign them for years. They are not going to buy disposal trucks, paint them up in their livery, employ people with uniforms and then be told they can go elsewhere "just like that" The council would be took to the cleaners by Sue, Grabbit and Runne before they can say "just like that"
Anyway even if they could the next private operator would be just as bad or maybe worse.
Sandy please did i not say to you "no onion and easy on the cheese" when will you bring the right order?

gus

As you say a council can choose which operator to use in the same way that with any individual under a capitalist system you can choose whichever service provider you want. So if your broadband supplier is not very good you can go elsewhere.

Yes you sign a contract but it doesn't have to be for more than 6 months (unless you are weak in the head) and if the service is bad the word will soon get out that they are bad and the company's profits will suffer badly. So they have a massive incentive to provide good performance.

With waste disposal, a private operator knows he will never get a job with another council if his service is poor or inadequate. So it is not in his interest (after paying for the trucks etc) to provide a poor service and the company would lose money for its shareholders (if it has them). This is not the case with councils who can continue to provide a poor service ad infinitum.

If a different broadband operator comes up with a cheaper offer, you can go elsewhere.

And if a company doing the rubbish disposal is not cheap enough or the quality of its service is poor YOU CAN GO ELSEWHERE.

That's how it works. It is called competition.

Efficiency, quality and value for money v an incompetent, apathetic state monopoly?


Mmm let me see, which one is best?

[Daz Madrigal]

Talking of Waste disposal again espoused by Mr.Joggers - its a bad morning for him!! My prediction that putting a bug inside a rubbish bin can only have value to the Govt and Council and not to us has of course come to pass. Thats a 100 per cent record methinks!

I'm afraid Melon swallowed it hook, line and sinker. In fact if I wasnt around she'd swallow EVERYTHING hook, line and sinker.

Gus was very sanguine - and gullible? - and burbled on about Germany (yet again!).

So for the hard of thinking here are the FACTS.

Those bugs are there to see how much refuse you put into the bin and that is their primary purpose. The Environment has little if anything to do with the Issue. Thats typical sleight of hand for the likes of Melon.

Once they find out how much refuse you fill the dustbins with the plan is to TAX you on the amount of refuse you put in.

WELL I TOLD YOU THIS GOVT WAS GARBAGE!!

[Daz Madrigal]

Sorry Mel, if your offended but only the gullible think the Govt acts for the Public good.

You no more gullible than the 99 per cent of humanity (all of whom are idiots). As for JSG..do me a favour and tell them that Daz will talk Man to Man with ANY of that lot and wipe the floor with them.

And thats a promise!

After the ruthless banning of Billy who is the most sensible poster I've ever come across - in fact almost on a par with moi - I think this is only fair. Lets talk it out and clean the air.

As for Peter Fluck...y'know what he can do Fluck Off and stop getting on his knees to wash the feet of False Prophets.

[Pink Betty]

No worries Daz - I am not in the least offended

you

err....spamming trolling flamer! ;D

(note to Jilona, this was said with affection and meant in a humourous way)

[gus2]

sandywinder said:

gus2 said:

Sandy did not you and I discuss the greed of Capitalism and indeed the greed of the individual, world wide that keeps Capitalism up and running. Did I not say at the time that benign world Communism would be a good thing but that "Greed" will not let it happen. You forgot, what else have you forgotten sandy. You burnt the toast, I asked for black olives and I got salami. You will have to snap out it.
So the private waste disposal operators if we dont like them they can go elsewhere "just like that" you are beginning to sound like Tommy Cooper. Do you think for one minute that they sign a contract for six weeks with the council in question. They sign them for years. They are not going to buy disposal trucks, paint them up in their livery, employ people with uniforms and then be told they can go elsewhere "just like that" The council would be took to the cleaners by Sue, Grabbit and Runne before they can say "just like that"
Anyway even if they could the next private operator would be just as bad or maybe worse.
Sandy please did i not say to you "no onion and easy on the cheese" when will you bring the right order?

gus

As you say a council can choose which operator to use in the same way that with any individual under a capitalist system you can choose whichever service provider you want. So if your broadband supplier is not very good you can go elsewhere.

Yes you sign a contract but it doesn't have to be for more than 6 months (unless you are weak in the head) and if the service is bad the word will soon get out that they are bad and the company's profits will suffer badly. So they have a massive incentive to provide good performance.

With waste disposal, a private operator knows he will never get a job with another council if his service is poor or inadequate. So it is not in his interest (after paying for the trucks etc) to provide a poor service and the company would lose money for its shareholders (if it has them). This is not the case with councils who can continue to provide a poor service ad infinitum.

If a different broadband operator comes up with a cheaper offer, you can go elsewhere.

And if a company doing the rubbish disposal is not cheap enough or the quality of its service is poor YOU CAN GO ELSEWHERE.

That's how it works. It is called competition.

Efficiency, quality and value for money v an incompetent, apathetic state monopoly?


Mmm let me see, which one is best?

Tis'nt true there have been numerous cases of private companies fooking things up and being "rewarded " with new contracts. I believe the company whose name slips my memory handling the IT in the NHS is a case in point.
Try reading Private Eye as a bit of a change from the Daily Wail you may, knowing you, I have to say "just may" get some idea of whats what and whos who.

gus

[Nathan deGargoyle]

admin said:

No worries Daz - I am not in the least offended

you

err....spamming trolling flamer! ;D

(note to Jilona, this was said with affection and meant in a humourous way)

I'm not sure Jilona will understand the words "affection" or "humourous" mel.You could offer her a dictionary definition though. ;D

[Daz Madrigal]

The funny thing is that she thinks thats she's the one with a 'sense of humour'.

One of the tricks of the soothsaying branch of Astrology is to start off by eulogising the clients 'creativity' (that always works..who isnt creative! ), followed by really going out on a limb by exclaiming 'you have a wonderful sense of humour!'.

EVERYONE has 'a wonderful sense of humour' (in their own muddled minds).